Freedom of Mind cult news & cult information

El Morya, You Have No Power!

By BlackSun / July 2nd, 2007 / Religion, Elizabeth Clare Prophet / 38 comments

Picking up on a recent post from Heather at Why Don’t You Blog?, I’ve decided to tackle the spiritual ‘founder’ of my parents’ cult, El Morya, and along with ‘him,’ everything ‘he’ started. This is by no means a complete debunking of the personality of this ficticious ‘master.’ Heather’s post did a pretty good job of that, and I will have more to say later.

Most readers will be unfamiliar with much of the terminology related to CUT and its theology. When you break it down, it’s not that different from standard religious fare. CUT uses its support of the world’s mainline religions as a way of building its credibility–kind of a theological open-door policy. The principal difference between CUT and most other religions is this syncretism. But rest assured, the members take the idiosyncratic nuances and revelations of their faith every bit as seriously as Christians, Mormons, or Scientologists do. But like other faiths, while espousing a degree of ecumenism, CUT considers its brand of truth to be exclusive and definitely required for salvation. Since this elaborate cosmology was my particular curse of childhood indoctrination, I felt it was about time to address it. Especially since the organization is approaching its 50th anniversary, and is launching several new initiatives on the web as well as internationally. They’ve just upgraded a number of their facilities in Montana, USA, and they show every sign of digging in for the long haul and preparing for the next phase of their expansion.

I don’t expect to reach hard-core members, most of whom already know my position, and consider me some sort of “fallen one.” But maybe those who are thinking of getting involved, spending years of their life and hard-earned cash supporting this organization might benefit from my 30-year insider perspective. I can only hope it might save them some trouble. This post also has permanent residency as a tab (called Blasphemy) on my front page.

My Blasphemy Challenge to members of CUT, other religions, and new age mystics:

My father was Mark Prophet, my mother is Elizabeth Clare Prophet. They were the founders and leaders of The Summit Lighthouse and Church Universal and Triumphant. Legend has it that Mark Prophet once rejected a vision of El Morya as a young man. Because of his Pentecostal upbringing, he considered the turbaned, bearded apparition to be a ‘devil.’ Later, El Morya ‘appeared’ to him a second time and convinced him of his reality. My dad then went on to found The Summit Lighthouse on August 7, 1958. Well, dad, I’m sorry to say you had it right the first time.

My parents called themselves messengers for the ‘Ascended Masters.’ I hereby repudiate and deny their message and mission. I declare that they invented their teaching about ‘Ascended Masters’ out of the whole cloth and by drawing from earlier fictional accounts, such as the books of Guy and Edna Ballard, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, and others. I declare that in my 30 years of intimate observation of their ministry and messengership, I saw absolutely no evidence to support their claims. I never observed any spiritual communication or supernatural phenomena, and never saw any prayers answered. There were no miracles or healings.

What I did see was the result of group dynamics, coercive manipulation, fearmongering, spiritual blackmail, and practiced stagecraft. Many of the stories circulating about my parents’ spiritual gifts and powers have been embellished and exaggerated by their followers, who have a strong incentive to justify their investments of time, money, and effort. In over 30 years, I saw no such occurrences. I watched two human beings who had both a good and a bad side, and were most definitely encumbered by the same human problems as the rest of us.

I was in charge of the Church Universal and Triumphant audio-visual department for over 5 years during two separate periods. Once in the early 1980s and later in the early 1990s. I saw many occasions where portions of so-called ‘dictations’ were composed and researched in advance–or their text changed after the fact. I participated in the editing of tapes of ‘dictations’ which changed their meaning. After the tapes were edited, on several occasions, the originals were destroyed. One of these involved a key church teaching about abortion (the original dictation had an exception for rape, the edited version did not).

There was also a secret vault of tapes from the early days of The Summit Lighthouse, including:

Staff meetings where my parents gave brutal treatment to the inner circle of staff members, putting them on “trial” and other ignominies. Embarrassing discourses on conspiracies, containing racist and politically extreme statements. Denouncements of oral sex between married staff members. Discussions in front of the staff of confessions of people’s personal sexual affairs and ’sins’ such as masturbation.

And a lot more. Other past CUT AV department heads are well aware of the existence of these tapes, the editing of dictations, and can also attest to these facts.

WHEREAS I have come to the realization of:

The failure of my parents messengership to provide any genuine verifiable contact with ‘god’ or even benevolent human leadership, by my own observation over a period of 30 years, and my mother’s eventual admission, The manipulation of their message and hiding of the truth on many occasions with their knowledge and cooperation, Their promotion of the “guru-chela” (master-slave) relationship as a spiritual path, which became an exercise in human dominance and submission (psychologically similar to consensual 24/7 sadomasochism, but maintained under false spiritual pretenses–more on this later), and led to rampant abuses of power in their dealings with their staff, The promotion and encouragement by the organization of the unquestioning beliefs of devotees (including predictions of nuclear war and other physical and spiritual ‘crises’ and disasters) as a self-serving method of maintaining power and income, The knowledge that the world’s other religions have been no better than CUT at representing their gods or promoting truth or reason, and have similarly betrayed the ’spiritual’ power vested in them by their followers, That there is not now and never has been a shred of credible evidence for any afterlife, reincarnation, ascension, or the existence of any deity who has any influence or effect on the earth or its people, That the only way to analyze religion is as a human cultural phenomenon, which means the behavior and morality of the participants becomes the only salient factor, That the gods and masters of such religions are man-made props, and the personalities are tailored to appeal to the many different personality types of the membership to allow for greater and more all-pervasive social control, That such control through mental and spiritual manipulation (and most especially through the indoctrination of children) is anti-human and devastatingly effective, and represents as great an evil as any of the totalitarian political systems of the 20th century. That such fear-based control systems are one of the leading threats to freedom that are even allowed to exist in a representative democracy. That the only way to break this stranglehold of dominance and deception and to restore sanity and ethical relationships among the membership is to destroy utterly the belief in the very personalities on which the control systems are based–starting at the very top with the big-daddy ‘god’ himself. That I as the son of the founders of CUT and the recipient of many of its mantles and titles supposedly bestowed by ‘the masters’ must set the example, in order that others may follow and thus conquer the phantasms of their fear of divine retribution by the ‘final judgment’ and loss of ascension.

I THEREFORE deny for all eternity the existence of God the Father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit. I deny the fictional characters of El Morya, Saint Germain, Sanat Kumara and the Seven Holy Kumaras, the seven Elohim, seven Chohans, and seven Archangels. I deny Alpha and Omega, Helios and Vesta, the Mighty I Am Presence, the Holy Christ Self, angels, elementals, and nature spirits. I deny the resurrection, transsubstantiation, and the hypnotic pseudo-science of the spoken word. I deny every supernatural personality, including Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, Peshualga, all demons, fallen angels, and devils.

To all the fraud messengers and charlatan hucksters of these comic-book personas, that they use to destroy people’s self-esteem and keep them dependent on their dictations, fighting false battles of light and darkness, quaking in their boots that they might not be doing enough decrees to win their ‘ascension,’ I repeat the words of my parents once used for a very different purpose: you have no power, your day is done! You can fool some of the people some of the time–after all you were trained by the best! But the world is moving on and will soon be done with these worthless myths. Your day of reckoning with reality will eventually come. You know who you are: Carolyn and Monroe Shearer (Temple of the Presence), David Lewis (Heart’s Center), and Dawn Covington (New Wisdom University).

By disowning these fantasy personalities, I declare that I refuse to live in fear of any ‘god’ or external ‘dark forces.’ In the unlikely event a god exists and controls my destiny, I will face his judgment and the “second death” with utter contempt and disdain for ‘His’ vicious and sadistic manipulations of human beings. But I have no fear this will be the case, for I have come to understand that ‘god’ is an entirely human construct. ‘God’s’ wholly man-made ‘law’ turns humans’ inherent nature against itself to create a living hell of denial, guilt, and fear. Such irrational fear once distracted me from my own responsibility to understand and control my behavior, to determine a direction for myself, to honor and work with others in my personal circle on my own terms, and to lead a productive and fulfilling life. No longer. The only thing I will ever fear, ultimately, is ignorance.

I declare that I am solely and wholly a chemical and physiological being. My thoughts and feelings arise from the interactions of neurotransmitters in my brain. I am a creature of free will, within the limits of that will and causality which are allowed by the nature of human genetics and brain function. I am responsible for the ethics of all of my conduct, and I declare that there is no such thing as ‘entity’ or ‘demon’ possession. I deny the ascension, the existence of an immortal soul, or any afterlife. My immortality can come only through my works of creativity, or the continuation through my children of the genes which spelled out my creation in the first place.

I therefore deny reincarnation, karma, and the spirit-matter split. I also deny the mind-body split, and all concepts of dualism. The universe and all it contains can logically only be natural and material–made of the same stuff we are–no matter how vast and how many constructs there may be, and no matter how ignorant we presently are of its ultimate extents. The only method which has consistent value for discovering truth about that universe is the objective scientific method. That method can also be the only way to consistently and reliably solve mysteries.

I deny the tenets of mysticism, that there are any immutable or ineffable mysteries which cannot or should not be explored, revealed, and deconstructed. I deny that consciousness is a phenomenon outside of matter, or that consciousness in any way precedes or resulted in the creation of matter. It is matter which is instead the precursor and the storehouse of all information and consciousness.

I deny all theories of non-locality, or of a mystical connection between physically distant objects, other than what may be proven to exist by quantum entanglement or other physical mechanism. I deny that all sentient beings are one, except through their common material substance, genetic lineage, and their drive to live their lives to the fullest extent possible. I deny the teachings of Buddhism that “suffering is caused by desire,” or that self-denial and asceticism represent any realistic path to enlightenment. Suffering is far more likely to be caused in this world by violence, political machinations, or deprivation of genuine human needs such as food, water, shelter, or companionship. The way to end such suffering is to fulfill one’s desires.

I deny that it is possible for human beings or scientists to “play god,” since there is no evidence for such a being. Instead, we humans should realize that we have the potential to be gods. This human aspiration toward the divine can only be satisfied through greater understanding and control of our universe. We not only can, but we have the obligation to repair our bodies, relieve suffering, and conquer aging, poverty, and disease. Since we have no realistic possibility for an afterlife, we should do everything in our power to re-invent and re-engineer ourselves and our societies to make the billions of lives on this special planet the very longest and best that they can be.

I declare that my life, heritage, and identity is defined by the cause and effect inherent in evolution. The quest for empirical knowledge and reason gives purpose to that life. Supernaturalism, mysticism, and religion take that purpose away, drowning all true knowledge and meaning in a psychic sewer of confusion–of ever-shifting subjective and imaginary spirits, phantoms, ghosts, and chimeras. The only way anyone can try to understand the universe as it is, is to attempt to eliminate all such baseless beliefs and subjective biases.

This has been my blasphemy challenge as inspired by the Rational Response Squad. I’m now officially on the record, and I cast this challenge into the teeth of the false and nonexistent ‘Lords of Karma’ and all the human charlatans and promoters of these imaginary personalities and forces of the so-called spirit world.

You should do it, too. Throw off your gullibility and credulity which subjects you to religious manipulation and makes you believe the Big Lie of life after death, judgment and damnation or loss of ‘ascension.’ You can experience this freedom from fear, and the power of knowing that you are the only one who has agency in your life. There is no one watching over you, punishing you, helping you, judging you, or protecting you. You are responsible to yourself alone for your safety and success. You are accountable to no one but yourself for your failures.

If you are not a manipulator or deceiver of yourself or others, you have nothing to fear from embracing your humanity. Nor from accepting the vastness, reality, sufficiency, and spectacular physical transcendence of our natural universe. Peace.

Comments (38 comments)

bob eldritch / July 3rd, 2007, 8:31 am / #1

I deny all theories of non-locality, or of a mystical connection between physically distant objects, other than what may be proven to exist by quantum entanglement or other physical mechanism.

Although one can think that a reasonable interpretation of the Bell test experiments is that the effects of quantum entanglement are non-local. And another thought could be that, while it may explain much else, the quantum theory of the standard model does not explain how atoms and molecules can persist and be of various forms as the elements and their compounds while the known forces act just as they can be measured and described.

While a further cause that would just act so as to maintain the correlations described in the entanglement of electrons and nuclear components of matter can be thought to act universally in addition to the forces.

James Prince / July 3rd, 2007, 7:01 pm / #2

Sean, Why don’t you tell us how you really feel? James

BlackSun / July 3rd, 2007, 7:18 pm / #3

Bob Eldritch, you’re a little over my head with quantum theory, but thanks for your comment. I’m mainly trying to speak to new-agers who have all their mystical forces lined up ready to explain any discrepancies or coincidences. They use non-locality as a metaphor for things they want to believe affect matter, such as good and bad energies, wishes, etc. What I wish is that they would just be a little more patient for the explanations that will surely come.

BlackSun / July 3rd, 2007, 7:20 pm / #4

James, gotcha. A true believer. Now I know the real reason you like conspiracy theories so much: you don’t want to accept that religion was the true cause behind 9/11.

James Prince / July 4th, 2007, 4:29 am / #5

Sean, No…I am afraid you have me pegged wrong. Just another former true believer like yourself making a joke at your expense . Since you brought it up I am still amazed that someone of your intelligence can not see the logic of the non MSM media 911 story. James

BlackSun / July 4th, 2007, 5:02 am / #6

Well then James, it seems you traded one true belief for another. But I will say that particular form of sarcasm usually comes from people who are objecting to the message. “How do you really feel?” has become a cliche like “That’s what she said.” It pokes fun at the level of seriousness, intensity, and earnestness of the message, but usually when people say it, they’re uncomfortable with the content itself. There’s a time for levity, and unfortunately that doesn’t coexist with blasphemy. I’m surprised you would joke about a statement about El Morya since you know the reason I made it is not because I take him seriously, but that so many other people do. And it leads me to believe you might still harbor some sympathy for the bastard.

I’ve posted about the similarities between the supernatural and conspiracy beliefs before. Just because we may not have every possible fact about 9/11 doesn’t lend further credence to the fiction.

Black Sun Journal » Archives » Independence of Thought / July 4th, 2007, 8:44 am / #7

[…] It’s no coincidence that I published my blasphemy about El Morya on July 2nd. I’ve had it sitting in my draft folder for the better part of a year, and I thought: what better time to declare my mental and spiritual independence from that cranky old coot than July 4th? But I didn’t want to ruin a perfectly good holiday with that. […]

Aaron / July 4th, 2007, 9:00 am / #8

Fantastic! What a well written denouncement. Personally, I don’t think there is any good reason to believe in any sort of non-locality, quantum or otherwise. Human beings are just profoundly poor at intuiting probabilities, and search for patterns in everything.

P.S. Did you send it to the RRS?

BlackSun / July 4th, 2007, 9:07 am / #9

Thanks, Aaron. No, I did not send it to RSS. I should do that.

Kay / July 4th, 2007, 9:14 pm / #10

This was great Sean!

Though I can’t call myself an atheist (yet), I appreciate the fact that you are able to fully articulate everything in a logical, well-thought out manner.

Couple of observations (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Since some people feel the need to believe in something, I propose using the movie “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure” (’Be excellent to one another’) as the basis for a ’school of thought.’ Despite the movie’s lack of intellectual capacity, I daresay it has to be a better alternative to all of the physical, emotional, mental and global stupidity that exists today in today’s religions.

Also it seemed as though some of language and “verbage” you used in this post was somewhat similar to some of the old pronouncements and preambles to decrees CUT used to make us do. Please know I do take your words with great respect. But I hope you don’t mind that I had an image of someone clad all in black swinging a chocolate bar (or even worse, a heavy metal CD) in the air to further demonstrate your words.

BlackSun / July 5th, 2007, 1:03 am / #11

Ha, Ha. Yes Kay, it was meant to be over-the-top–sort of self-parody in a way but also serious since we used to say those things so seriously 144x like “You have no power, your day is done.” And there are probably people still saying it now.

Brian Sapient / July 6th, 2007, 12:11 pm / #12

Would you be willing to talk about this for a few minutes for one of our shows? Send me an email if so.

- Brian Sapient www.rationalresponders.com

BlackSun / July 6th, 2007, 12:16 pm / #13

Brian, I’d love to be on your show!

Aaron Kinney / July 24th, 2007, 12:31 pm / #14

I will choose FREEWILL!

Excellent Blasphemy, Sean. And you should totally go on the RRS show. Make it happen!

Michelle Cota / August 4th, 2007, 7:26 pm / #15

Boy I understand you, My mother left in 1987 and moved to Livingston to follow them. We had very little contact only a call once or twice a year to stay the world was ending and if we wanted to live we had to buy into the bomb shelter. She has left Cut but she left with nothing after 15 years. I am happy you are out and doing what you want not what they want. And that she finally saw the light.

BlackSun / August 6th, 2007, 12:24 am / #16

Michelle, I’m sorry that happened. I saw a lot of that. At least your mom’s out now. But I’m sure like most CUT members, when she was a believer, no one could have convinced her otherwise. I’m quite sure you tried.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 12:34 am / #17

Hi Sean,

It’s great to read your posts. I can imagine how it must have been to live with such influential parents, who might have been too zealous in their mission and maybe failed to give enough love and care for their own children. Tender, human love. I don’t have any personal attachment to TSL, in fact I have learned about the organization and your mother as their “guru” only a few years ago. I’ve read some of their texts and they do seem powerful. Lot of it makes sense. It’s about higher values and following a higher path. Not living like animals, brother-kill-brother, but with respect, love and a higher vision of human life. Judging from today’s world, we ARE a bit off the track, I’d say.

Every child needs parents - a mother to give him nurturance and protection, and a father to give him guidance and inspiration. Sometimes the parents don’t do their job well, and it leaves us with scars. Since they aren’t perfect, they cannot give us perfect love. And it makes us crave for that perfect love for the rest of our lives. Thinking that either we are not good enough to receive it, or the others are not good enough to provide it.

But… what if we knew that there was a perfect parent somewhere out there who could give us that perfect love? And because such a parent would exist, we would know that we are worthy of that love. That we are worthy as a human being. Well, such parents we can find in our divine parents, in the concept of Father/Mother God. Even if it is just an idea, it helps us a lot. To know that we are not alone in this harsh world. And that there is a higher standard of love, care, respect, nurturance. It helps us to know that we are not abnormal for craving for such love. It helps us stay sane. Stay enthusiastic. Stay in love with life. Ascended masters and the whole heavenly hierarchy can help us do exactly that - achieve that inner peace and that state of loving life, and ourselves, and wanting to raise all life. It can help us fulfill our highest potential, which deep inside we know we possess, but we gave up for this or that reason. Divine hierarchy, whether a myth or reality, can help us be a better person, a full human being, a beautiful jewel… a divine spark.

Therefore I don’t have anything against outer teachers, if they help us reach our inner teacher. If they help us find our true selves. What I am against is idolatry, guru worshiping, putting other people on a pedestal and denigrating ourselves, fearing the punishment of an “angry God”, fulfilling outer standards and rituals while not really working on purifying our heart and transcending our blocks to love.

I am for balance in everything, as your mother would say “balance of the threefold flame”. Balanced love, love which nurtures but also shows the way, which is powerful and yet tender, which brings everything into alignment with man’s highest potential - to be God.

I understand your need to denounce wrong doings and cut your ties with the imbalances of the past, but I would suggest not to throw the baby together with the bathing water.

Because, after all, the Sun is and will always be golden, no matter what color we think it is. Peace and love, Tea.

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 1:03 am / #18

Tea, I think you should have used the handle Kool-Aid, which you seem to have drunk. I’ve addressed each and every one of your points extensively over the past several years. With regard to CUT and TSL, as you plainly acknowledged, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about:

I don’t have any personal attachment to TSL, in fact I have learned about the organization and your mother as their “guru” only a few years ago.

I grew up there and spent 30 years there. So you can take my advice and save yourself a lot of trouble, or spend your life chasing ghosts. It’s your call.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 5:06 am / #19

Dear Sean,

I fully trust that you had negative experiences with TSL, CUT and similar organizations, and based on that, probably developed a strong rejection to spirituality as such. But I can also tell you my experience: growing up in an ordinary family, without any connection to spiritual communities not to mention ascended masters (didn’t have a clue about them until recently) - in short without any indoctrination in that sense, I was still observing the world around me and asking some “unanswerable” questions. Like most of us do. And I had this inner feeling that we are more than a set of chemical reactions (although sophisticated), and that we are here for a higher purpose. Even as a child, I had this inner knowing. And nobody can tell me that I should believe differently, whether it be a guru or a respected scientist.

So yes, I acknowledge your experience, but I also have mine. And I know very well what I’m doing. I am not joining any cults, I am just trying to be a better person, a better human being, and help improve conditions on our planet. This striving is I think natural for all people, and in fact, an important feature that separates us from animals.

Love, Tea

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 9:13 am / #20

OK, Tea, if you want to be spiritual, go for it. But what I don’t understand is why it’s so important for people to hold on to the idea of “more.” What is this fascination with the unseen and unknowable?

What’s so hard about sticking with the life that you have? What’s so hard about disciplining yourself to only accept verifiable knowledge? It seems to stem from some core level of dissatisfaction. Some kind of existential temper tantrum. Like it’s not enough to be alive on possibly one of the only planets in a vast universe with intelligent life. (Although the human penchant for nonsense such as fabricating personalities like El Morya really makes me wonder.) It’s not enough to be self-aware and self-reflective. It’s not enough that you won the genetic lottery and were born, out of the millions of possible sperm that could have connected with your mother’s ovum. It’s not enough that you were born at a time when we actually are starting to understand the mechanism of life, instead of running around clubbing each other to death (although we still do some of that.) It’s not enough to look up in the night sky and realize that most of the light you are seeing from stars left its point of origin many millions of years ago, and the ’star’ might not even be there anymore.

This idea that we are somehow here for some kind of purpose or higher calling really strikes me as missing the point. Whose purpose? Why can’t we find our own? Why does it have to be invented by someone else?

What’s wrong with accepting that you have a chemical brain? Why do you think we have to be so different from animals? Untold trillions of animals sacrificed their lives on the altar of evolution so you could think the thoughts you are thinking now, and have the “spiritual” experiences you enjoy, and yet you find the idea that you are an animal somehow revolting. I don’t get it.

Frankly, you don’t know enough about the human brain, animal brains or evolution to be revolted. Even rats have empathy. Subjective human consciousness and free will is largely an illusion produced by the brain for our survival, and the idea that we are categorically different from animals is completely false.

I have no problem if you want to make things better for yourself or the world. But when you start out with so many false premises, you may find that very difficult. You only have one life. Use it wisely.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 9:48 am / #21

Millions of people on Earth experience what you call a deep sense of dissatisfaction. Actually it is a longing for the ultimate fulfillment, for oneness with something greater than yourself. And no matter how many scientific proofs you might provide, people will always crave for that “more”. While animals don’t. You cannot help it, Sean. It’s human nature. Does it mean that we are all illusioned, that we are crazy and irrational? Or ungrateful for what we have? No. It means we feel something in our soul, we feel a yearning, a call. Many of us are not quite aware what that yearning is about, but it is there, in our heart, in our “chemical brain.”

To be always more is the concept behind sustainable development - balanced growth without exhausting our resource base. Imagine if the world stopped developing at the cave stage. Or in the Middle Ages. Although we were close to it… If it weren’t for people who wanted “more”, where would we be now? Where would science be? All development stems from that inner urge, to be more. To me, it’s absolutely logical and inevitable. People, as conscious beings, are like that. With all due respect to animals.

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 10:17 am / #22

Tea,

This is kind of a pointless discussion. Of course people are driven to human progress, and that’s a good thing. It’s our only saving grace, if you’ll pardon the religious alliteration. But the “more” I’m objecting to is the “more” that causes us to look for things that aren’t there. In the middle ages, for example, people thought diseases were caused by evil spirits. That belief delayed them from finding out about microbes. Current beliefs also detract mightily from human progress.

I agree with you that many people share the spiritual instinct. It had an evolutionary purpose, (coping with anxiety) but it has outlived its usefulness. Now, what’s left is just an instinct to copy and copy and promote such thinking (which is a meme, the thought equivalent of a gene). This is what life does, it copies itself. If you are at all intellectually curious about why you feel the way that you do, read Breaking the Spell by Dennett, and The God Part of the Brain by Alper.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 11:06 am / #23

As far as I know, many great scientists and artists in history were quite spiritual or had some relationship with God. And they didn’t deny they were inspired. Beethowen, for example, admitted that he is often quarreling with God, but that he, God, inspires his music. Check the movie “Copying Beethowen”.

So if people who had contact with “something higher” and who, as a result of that contact, brought some tangible benefit to the society - if they admit the existence of “something higher”, then why would we, who might have not been open to such an experience, deny it? If we cannot see it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Of course, brain is a physical vehicle, and everything that’s happening to us in the physical octave has to be manifested in the brain as well (and then, and only then, can scientists detect it with their physical instruments), but does it mean that the brain is the primary source of all experiences? Like, we see pictures on a movie screen, but does it mean that the screen itself is the origin of those pictures? Or there is maybe a film stripe and a light bulb…?

Not disregarding the great progress of science, “there is (still) more between Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet, Shakespeare).

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 11:25 am / #24

As far as I know, many great scientists and artists in history were quite spiritual or had some relationship with God.

Scientists often were funded or beholden to churches, which were much more like governments than they are today. For example, Newton wrote prodigiously on theology, but his contributions to science are what we remember. More recently, the number of scientist-believers was 7% in 1998. I’ve covered all of this in a previous post. Please read it because I don’t have the time or patience to go through all this every time some supernatural believer comes here spouting the same predictable litany about the “physical octave” and such.

If we cannot see it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

No. This such a silly straw man. We have many ways of detecting things that don’t involve vision. All of them, however, require verification and confirmation by multiple observers.

Like, we see pictures on a movie screen, but does it mean that the screen itself is the origin of those pictures? Or there is maybe a film stripe and a light bulb…?

What, are we in philosophical kindergarten? Please. If you think the brain is some sort of receiving station (a favorite supernaturalist claim), then it is up to you to prove it.

And I’ll tell you, Tea, my days of having these kinds of discussions are numbered. Every one of these points I’ve addressed many times over, as have many astute philosophers much wiser than me. Yet because you haven’t bothered to study or read them or familiarize yourself with the arguments, you think you are making some kind of original rebuttal. Think again.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 11:38 am / #25

Sean, I see you are very tired of having to prove your claims over and over again. I am sorry that you are so attached to them. True, I don’t follow your blog nor am I familiar with your attitudes. Sorry for that too. No, I don’t think I am making any original rebuttal. Much smarter people than me have already done that. The history indeed repeats itself…

I wish you all the best and send you my love. Tea

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 11:51 am / #26

I am sorry that you are so attached to them.

I am attached to objective truth, which does not conform to wishes. Yours or mine.

Your ‘love’ is tinged with arrogance and the holier-than-thou attitude common to believers. Which is a part of your shadow-denial complex. Blech! Which is why I always have to hesitate before approving initial comments such as yours. Because I know I’m in for the same tired spiel and white-knuckled denial. You’re hanging on to that fantasy for dear life. Oh, sweet dreams of immortality and delusions of grandeur. Shakespeare should have written about that.

But I have to balance my distaste for your supernatural hokum against the possibility that I may yet touch and awaken your intellect (or possibly that of another reality-challenged reader who may follow our dialog). So to that end I present myself as a living sacrifice on the altar of reason.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 12:00 pm / #27

No, I really do send you my love, because in the process of dealing with my shadows and complexes, I learned to open my heart and love unconditionally. True, I do think that you are wrong, but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect you as a human being and wish you all the best. I can only smile at our present disagreement, and wait until one day we meet in a higher octave

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 12:11 pm / #28

in the process of dealing with my shadows and complexes, I learned to open my heart and love unconditionally.

Oooh, baby, you’re SO evolved.

See the shadow work is never done. So by acting as if it is, (you used past tense, or was that a Freudian slip?) you have proven that you are not dedicated to the real serious and ongoing excavation.

There is no such thing as unconditional love. You have no reason to love me, having never met me. Such professions of love are cheap and meaningless, kind of like a guy on a first date claiming he loves a girl to get into her pants.

Keep on with your false certitudes–no one can stop you. But in the back of your mind, you will always remember that someone cared enough to try to set you straight. If you insist you love me, then love me for that.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 12:31 pm / #29

So much sarcasm in you and negative vibes… that’s not nice of you. As for love, I love people’s spiritual (and human) potential, not their pseudo selves.

You too keep checking on those brain cells in the back of your mind, because you might be surprised! Peace, Tea

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 12:44 pm / #30

So much sarcasm in you and negative vibes… that’s not nice of you.

Well you see, I have no problem owning my shadow. I can be a bastard at times. But I think I made my point, and I never attacked you personally, only the part of you with delusional beliefs.

And as long as you are still breathing, there is hope for you to gain the self-discipline necessary to align your wishes with facts.

You too keep checking on those brain cells in the back of your mind,

Believe me, I will. A rationalist wants nothing more than to be proved wrong. Because then it will mean that I learned something. But I know the methods which are most likely to bear fruit. And I know only too well the ones which do not. Which is why I stick tenaciously to my guns when faced with clear contradictions and errors.

I love people’s spiritual (and human) potential, not their pseudo selves.

What is a pseudo-self? And who decides?

Please, and I’m not kidding, read some of the books I’ve recommended. Otherwise, you are just posturing. See, I’ve read all the CUT books and used to be a minister. So we’re not on a level playing field. I’ve explored both sides, and you’ve only explored the spiritual. If you are a seeker of truth, then it’s time you even that score. I dare you.

Tea / August 7th, 2007, 1:39 pm / #31

You asked me to prove my spiritual insights by a method which would be acceptable to a materialist, i.e. to a person who doesn’t believe in spiritual side of life. How could I ever do that, my friend? In order to feel it, you first need to believe it. That’s what free will is all about.

Maybe your previous methods, learned in TSL and CUT, were simply not good, or maybe your state of consciousness at that time didn’t allow to experience more than “objective truth”. Maybe those methods, no matter how elaborate, didn’t manage to put your heart on fire, to experience the magic of love. Because otherwise you would have felt, you would have known, that there is something higher.

Scientists cannot tell you. I know because I am one too. And know a lot about psychology, Freud, masks and shadows… Maybe we are not on the level playing field simply because you are listening to your mind, while I am trying to be more tuned to my heart. And they are not on the same level indeed.

I respect your concern for me and my illusions, but I also want to point out at your all-knowing attitude, which can also become a trap. I see a great potential in you, a great thinker, but if I were you, I wouldn’t shut my door to higher understanding just because my (or my mother’s) original method proved wrong. I would stay open. And I would allow others to have the right on their truth. Because, yes, until we are in the duality of material universe, it will be always my truth against yours. Although it won’t stay like that for long, because scientists are already beginning to bridge the gap between matter and spirit, recognizing that there indeed is something beyond matter. They don’t call it spirit yet, but… I look forward to a day when the chasm between science and spirituality, religion and spirituality, will finally be bridged, and we will see the grand picture, the unitive theory of universe and our existence.

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 2:03 pm / #32

In order to feel it, you first need to believe it.

Ok, now I’m really laughing. You say you’re a scientist, yet you spout crap like that. You’re putting the cart before the horse. A scientist would first look for evidence, then create the theory. You want it the other way around: manufacture subjective evidence for the theory you desire. This is what Daniel Dennett calls “belief in belief.”

more than “objective truth”.

There you go again with “more!” What more could you possibly want than objective truth? LOL!?! ;-0

you are listening to your mind, while I am trying to be more tuned to my heart.

Your heart is a pump, dearie. When you listen to it, all you hear is a heartbeat.

scientists are already beginning to bridge the gap between matter and spirit, recognizing that there indeed is something beyond matter. They don’t call it spirit yet,

If scientists can study it, then it is material. What you call spirit is something you keep conveniently out of reach of rigorous investigation. This helps you keep insulated from ever having to self-examine. Believe me, I know all about the mystical traps.

I look forward to a day when the chasm between science and spirituality, religion and spirituality, will finally be bridged, and we will see the grand picture, the unitive theory of universe and our existence.

But you’re not willing to wait for it. You’ve already got your conclusions all mapped out. If you were a true scientist, you would reserve judgment until it could be proven. But then you’d have to delay gratification, and that’s just too difficult. You’d rather live in your fantasy dream-world, ’cause it’s a lot more fun. No one’s going to stop you, but quit pretending you’re serious about knowledge!

tea / August 7th, 2007, 4:06 pm / #33

If we stop paying attention to our dreams, we are dead. As individuals and as a society.

I am interested in true knowledge, which doesn’t necessarily confine to only that what we can detect with our instruments. Because, isn’t it funny, the better the instruments, the more we know or we think we know… but still, we don’t know how big is the part which we don’t know. I give it a chance that it’s very big, in fact infinite. And pretty amazing too. And I choose to believe in that “illusion” rather than wait for the next generation of microscopes. It’s much funnier like that. And greater peace of mind…

Wish you all the best, Tea.

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 4:19 pm / #34

I don’t know who’s suggesting that, certainly not me.

Because, isn’t it funny, the better the instruments, the more we know or we think we know… but still, we don’t know how big is the part which we don’t know.

Yeah, isn’t it funny that I wrote a very lengthy exploration of this exact subject, which you clearly haven’t read. I already provided a link earlier in the discussion, but here it is again, in case you missed it.

And I choose to believe in that “illusion” rather than wait for the next generation of microscopes. It’s much funnier like that. And greater peace of mind…

So you admit you prefer comfortable illusions over truth. Which is what I’ve been saying all along. Enjoy your illusions, Tea, just don’t pretend they’re real.

tea / August 7th, 2007, 4:40 pm / #35

BTW I am sure you are familiar with experiments in quantum physics when they observed quantum particles, and the outcome of the experiment depended on the person of the observer. So it was not an “objective reality” any more, because each observer experienced a different manifestation of a physical particle. In other words, each observer created their own physical reality, depending on their thoughts and state of consciousness.

Thoughts, as we know, are energy waves. And they somehow affected the manifestation of that particle. Maybe if the particle was an energy wave before it became a particle (which wouldn’t be surprising knowing the Einstein’s equation E=mc2, which basically says that energy and matter are one and the same at higher vibrations), it could have easily been affected by the observer’s thoughts (also energy waves), and voila - a very special, “observer customized” particle in the physical shows up! That’s the reality that scientists are dealing with at the moment.

In other words, it’s very tricky to talk about “objective reality”. Because it seems that at the core of things, we create our own reality.

BlackSun / August 7th, 2007, 4:57 pm / #36

Ok, I’m out, you win–or should I say “you wish.” Bye!

Justme / September 19th, 2007, 12:18 pm / #37

I admire your honesty and courage. Two thumbs up for you.

Pining for a miracle » Why Dont You Blog? / September 24th, 2007, 12:42 pm / #38

[…] This atheist blog will boldly go where your sceptical RC selves fear to tread. Straight to the website of the Divine Innocence of course. You may think the images of El Morya look comically sickly-sweet. I defy anyone to look on this “baby Jesus with lamb” image without retching. You will be begging for the mildly sinister saving grace of the El-Morya Bin Laden visual undertones just for a bit of artistic complexity. […]

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